1. Caro Visitante, por que não gastar alguns segundos e criar uma Conta no Fórum Valinor? Desta forma, além de não ver este aviso novamente, poderá participar de nossa comunidade, inserir suas opiniões e sugestões, fazendo parte deste que é um maiores Fóruns de Discussão do Brasil! Aproveite e cadastre-se já!

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Visitante, junte-se ao Grupo de Discussão da Valinor no Telegram! Basta clicar AQUI. No WhatsApp é AQUI. Estes grupos tem como objetivo principal discutir, conversar e tirar dúvidas sobre as obras de J. R. R. Tolkien (sejam os livros ou obras derivadas como os filmes)

Duelo no Portão Negro: a versão que chegou a ser filmada!

Tópico em 'O Senhor dos Anéis - os Filmes' iniciado por Roy Batty, 26 Fev 2009.

  1. Roy Batty

    Roy Batty "Inconsertável"

    <o:p></o:p>[FONT=&quot]<o:p></o:p>[/FONT]
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li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:Batang; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family:Batang; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 3.0cm 70.85pt 3.0cm; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Tabela normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> Acho que neste caso não preciso colocar aviso de Spoiler....de qualquer jeito, para os mais desavisados, o post trata de uma cena inédita que chegou a ser filmada mas que foi abandonada no processo de edição de “O Retorno do Rei”. E vou colocar o vídeo dessa cena. Acho que não há nada “ilegal” nisso, de qualquer jeito, afinal, esse vídeo está nos extras da versão importada.

    Então, meio que compensando o descaso da Warner, faço questão de mostrar um trecho bem interessante dos extras...
    Peguei como “inspiração” o post do 10[FONT=&quot] º membro no tópico “O Portão Negro e as Torres das Presas”, na seção “As Sete Maravilhas de Arda”, quando ele tinha postado o vídeo com a cena do Boca de Sauron.<o:p></o:p>[/FONT]


    Eis o vídeo (SPOILER!!!) :


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0 0 1 1 1 1 1; mso-font-charset:129; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1342176593 1775729915 48 0 524447 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0cm; margin-right:0cm; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0cm; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:Batang; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-language:EN-US;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-fareast-font-family:Batang; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:70.85pt 3.0cm 70.85pt 3.0cm; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Tabela normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> Pois é....a despeito da maior polêmica que se poderia causar, ficou curioso o fato de terem filmado o duelo entre Aragorn e Sauron (com corpo físico!!!!!).
    Vi pessoas que disseram que adorariam ver esse duelo no cinema no lugar do duelo entre Aragorn e o Troll. Eu, particularmente, acho uma idéia das mais absurdas e desrespeitosas possíveis com relação àquilo que Tolkien imaginou.
    O q vcs têm a dizer sobre o duelo? Se essa versão do Aragorn lutando contra Sauron fosse realmente a escolhida, os fãs matariam literalmente PJ?
    Sou da seguinte opinião: por mais que ficasse bem feito e empolgante o duelo em si, seria uma modificação tão banal que chego a dizer que isso comprometeria em parte (ou em boa parte) o desfecho da trilogia e provavelmente amaldiçoaríamos PJ pelo resto da vida; sem contar o fato de que ninguém o apoiaria para ser o produtor de “O Hobbit”.
    Conheço algumas pessoas que curtem esse tipo de apelação e não vêem mal algum no fato de Sauron partir pra porrada..
    Bom....não quero me prolongar muito....eu acho essa história toda uma grande afronta ao livro. Eu que apoiei 90% das mudanças na adaptação (inclusive, SPOILER, a cena do Rei Bruxo derrubando Gandalf) não engoliria esta em particular sob nenhum argumento que fosse. Mesmo que Sauron realmente tivesse corpo físico na Guerra do Anel (creio que quase todos concordam que ele possuía), sabemos muito bem que ele tinha muito a perder se arriscasse a ir para a batalha pessoalmente. Afinal, mal tinha ele se recuperado da derrota na batalha de Dagorlad e tudo o que ele queria era esperar que seus comandados recuperassem o Anel para que finalmente pudesse triunfar.


    Caso ele fosse para o pau com Aragorn, existiria o risco considerável de colocar seus planos por água abaixo. O que vcs pensam sobre isso? Cinematograficamente seria um gigantesco hollywoodianismo da pior categoria ou, ainda sim, algo possível de dar certo? Fico com a primeira opção, sem pensar duas vezes!


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    • Ótimo Ótimo x 1
  2. Indily

    Indily Balrog de Pantufas Fofas

    Embora a cena seria algo interessantíssimo de ver, no centido cinematográfico e nas viagens mentais de uma fã, concordo que tamanha alteração no percurso da história contada nos livros não me deixaria nada satisfeita.
    Inúmeras das alterações já não me descem na goela, essa com certeza seria mais uma. Se encaixaria no mesmo contexto do Abismo de Helm. Visualmente falando os elfos na batalha ficaram fantasticos, mas não me agradou nadinha essa alteração bem como a morte de Haldir.
    No caso da luta de Aragorn com Sauron, o que seria dessa batalha? Afinal, nenhum dos dois poderia morrer ou acabaria totalmente com o livro! A luta seria interrompida e a batalha teria seu segmento? Pra isso teria que mostrar um dos dois lados fugindo da batalha? Não... num ia dar pra encarar muito bem não.
    Concordo com vc que seria inaceitável, embora emocionante.

    Belo post.
     
  3. TorUgo

    TorUgo a.k.a. Tortoruguito...

    Muito interessante! Não conhecia esta cena! Tinha visto imagens de Atannar representado no filme do PJ, mas nunca tinha visto onde tinham ido buscar essas imagens! :lol:

    Realmente seria interessante ver uma cena dessas, mas seria muito pouco canónico! Sauron nunca desceria da sua torre para lutar contra um homem, e muito menos Aragorn, o descendente de Elendil e Isildur!

    ;D
     
  4. Elendil

    Elendil Equipe Valinor

    Quando vi essa cena nos extras das estendidas dei graças a Eru que o PJ resolveu tirar. Com exceção da morte de Haldir, nenhuma modificação me agride, mas isso eu não teria gostado.

    E o fato de Sauron estar em seu corpo físico em Barad-dûr (aprendi isso aqui na Valinor e não faz muito tempo :mrgreen:) não fica claro para quem vê os filmes, e pensa que ele é aquele "olho farol" no topo da torre. Sauron aparecendo no Portão para lutar com Aragorn iria deixar muita gente confusa. O que eles teriam feito? Sauron aparece e o Olho some? Ficaria estranho.
     
  5. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Aprendendo com um

    Acho que foi feito o certo, o filme trouxe a adaptação literarária e pra alimentar a curiosidade dos fãs uma simulação da batalha.

    Não sabia que ele estava em corpo físico, achava que ele era o "Olho Farol":think:.Por favor postem o link dessa discussão que gostaria dar uma olhada.
     
  6. Elendil

    Elendil Equipe Valinor

    Tá aí, amigo. Entre alguns dos tópicos no "Obras" que discutem a forma física de Sauron, esse é um dos mais recentes:

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    ;)
     
  7. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Aprendendo com um

    Opa valeu Eädsohn.

    To traumatizado, eu li o livro e quando falava do Olho eu jurava que era o representado nos filmes.Não to acreditando até agora.O.O
     
  8. JPHanke

    JPHanke Usuário

    Por mais que a cena ficasse bem feita, acredito que a maioria absoluta dos fãs da obra iriam odiar esta cena, inclusive eu. PJ fez muito bem em não colocá-la nos filmes (nem nas extendidas :mrgreen:)
     
  9. Roy Batty

    Roy Batty "Inconsertável"

    Entendo, Ly! E obrigado!


    Mas, queria comentar em off sobre o que vc disse dos elfos e tal no Abismo...

    A presença do Elfos no Abismo ficou legal e PJ teve motivos plausíveis para mudar aquilo que estava no livro. Só detestei a morte do Haldir. :roll:

    Mas, se vc levar em consideração que livro e cinema são duas mídias absolutamente distintas, sabe que seria muito provável que a cena de uns 300 homens vencendo 10.000 Uruks, como no livro, ficaria inverossímil. No livro mesmo essa batalha tem algumas falhas...Tolkien optou pelo drama psicológico sem se ater muito às estratégias. No filme, podemos dizer que existe uma estratégia e uma atitude que se poderia esperar de um senhor sábio como Elrond, ao enviar uma última ajuda aos homens.

    Quando li o livro pela primeira vez, imaginei se os Elfos não poderiam dar uma mãozinha, por que não? Pelo menos, no cinema ficou empolgante e muito bem filmado! Aliás, os elfos é que sustentam o encanto durante boa parte da batalha.

    Acho que, de certa maneira, o sucesso da trilogia deu-se justamente pelo hábil e flexível roteiro que, além de coeso (afinal, foi um processo contínuo de dezenas de revisões para que se chegasse a um resultado satisfatório), soube tirar cenas que no cinema seriam inadequadas, seja por motivos de dinamismo ou fluidez, seja por uma questão de credibilidade, pois algumas coisas que Tolkien escreveu são meio absurdas, como exatamente essa questão de somente termos os homens na defesa do Abismo.

    Claro que seria loucura dizer que os erros arranham as obras de Tolkien como um todo, mas que, pelo fato dos livros não serem perfeitos, creio que as mudanças ocorridas na adaptação poderiam dar certo (como deram na maioria dos casos). :D

    Mas o que importa é que a trilogia é o que é pela ousadia de PJ. Sem o qual, poderíamos ter uma trilogia nos moldes de um Harry Potter (neste filme a fidelidade é bem maior, em contrapartida, a direção nem um pouco ousada e tampouco dinâmica de seus diretores criaram uma saga apenas boa, que poderia ser melhor se soubesse explorar as sutilezas da obra e substituir passagens irrelevantes para se narrar numa mídia que requer dinamismo e agilidade como o cinema!
     
  10. Indily

    Indily Balrog de Pantufas Fofas

    Fail by ly que escreveu centido e não sentido!!!! Mico do ano!!!
    E sim, em HP é mais fiel, mas as falhas quando cometidas doem de serem vistas pelos fãs... eu tenho inúmeras coisa que não me descem pela goela desde o primeiro filme... desde de bobeiras como coisas importantes.
    Mas é fato, jamais, o filme será integralmente fiel ao livro, até pq eles acabariam por não ser tão chamativos e dinâmicos para um público não conhecedor da obra...
     
    Última edição: 27 Fev 2009

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