Felagund não ouviu falar da antiga esperança? Com a Andreth? A reação dele foi positiva pelo menos naquele texto. Claro se a encarnação que vc tiver falando for em relação a vinda de jesus cristo que seria supostamente Eru ou sei lá.
Sim é dessa mesma que eu estou falando, do Advento.
Ouvir falar é uma coisa; intepretar uma profecia humana a respeito do assunto como ele parece ter feito nos comentários do Finrod e Andreth é diferente de estar ciente do fato
ter acontecido mesmo depois de se estar reencarnado em Aman e longe do palco dos acontecimentos. E não dá pra saber se todos os Eldar reagiriam diante da idéia da mesma maneira. Até mesmo uma reação como a dele poderia desencadear mudanças no status quo em Aman ou entre os elfos remanescentes na Terra Média.
Como se sentiriam os elfos em Valinor ao saberem que Eru teria encarnado ( ou iria, eventualmente se encarnar) na Terra Média transformada no nosso Mundo Pós Glaciações pra salvar a Criação do Mal de Melkor?
Será que o próprio fim da Era Glacial não poderia ser um efeito colateral do retorno de alguns dos vanyar pra Terra Média, ainda mais considerando sua conexão linguística e conceitual com os vanir nórdicos? Inclusive o nome do Ingwë dos Vanyar é baseado no do deus vanir mais proeminente do mito nórdico, o Frey Ingwe.
Como bem explicou
Terry Gunnel em
texto postado na web escandinava( vira e mexe dá pau) que eu acabei salvando no meu blog graças ao google cache
Finally, one cannot forget the links between Tolkien's elves and beautiful ships (bringing to mind the role of Njörður, and Freyr's ship Skíðblaðnir), or the key fact that in The Silmarillion, the name of the elf who led the first elven tribe - known incidentally as the Vanyar - is Ingwe.
I should stress here that I am not trying to say that Tolkien's elves are meant to belong to the Vanir race, more that these are mythological notes that he consciously or unconciously plays on in the mind of at least one reader.
Sendo eles o símbolo dos deuses agrícolas, da prosperidade da Terra não poderiam ser eles os arautos do fim da última era glacial há dez mil anos? Será, ademais, que os próprios valar ficariam sempre, sempre, agindo de comum acordo, tendo a opinião minoritária de alguns deles sido ignorada pro detrimento de toda Arda, no fim das contas?
Será que eles poderiam, com isso, acreditar equivocadamente que o Fim de Arda Desfigurada estaria mais próximo? Algo assim inclusive aconteceu na versão primitiva do Legendarium quando os elfos fizeram o Faring Forth and the Rekindling of the Magic Sun(O Avanço pra Diante e o Reacender do sol mágico que culminava com a volta de alguns dos elfos erësseanos comandados por Ingwë, pras Ilhas Britânicas e sua eventual derrota e "evanescimento". Detalhe, nessa versão eles usariam a ilha como navio e ela se tornaria a a Inglaterra e a Irlanda no fim das contas tendo sido invadida pelos homens da Terra Média).
Vide
nesse texto recente do Martinez aí
In The Book of Lost Tales, the wanderer Eriol is told that the Vala Ulmo saved Earendel (sic) from the ruin of Gondolin so that he might sail west and find Valinor. But Earendel reached Valinor too late: the Elves had already left. Christopher Tolkien pieces together an interesting narrative of the Faring Forth. It appears that when birds from Gondolin reached Elfinesse (sic) with news of the city’s destruction, Ingwe, King of all the Eldar, defied the Valar and led the Elves of Kor in a march to the Great Lands (there is no “Middle-earth” in The Book of Lost Tales). There the Elves fought a great war with Melko (Melkor –> Morgoth), and lost. And the Valar left the Elves to their fate, except for Tulkas.
Of course, as with many of Tolkien’s stories, there are several variations of the Faring Forth myth. In an early version of the story, Tulkas becomes the sole Vala to intervene on behalf of the Elves. Ingwe’s army apparently reaches the Great Lands and is defeated at Tasarinan. Ingwe himself is slain. Tulkas brings an army and defeats Melko in the battle of the Twilight Pools, and then proceeds to Angamandi, where he takes Melko prisoner and releases the captive Elves. The Elves of Kor and the freed Elves then return to Valinor, only there to learn that the Valar had barred them from entering Valinor. So the Elves settle on Tol Eressea. But eventually Ingil, the son of Ingwe, returns to Valinor with the fairest and wisest of the Eldar.
In another tradition from the Lost Tales, Earendel reaches Valinor after Ingwe has led his people back to the great Lands. The city of Kor is deserted, and Earendel fails in his mission (which is not clearly enunciated by Ulmo anyway). The mariner returns to the Great Lands and he scours the ruins of Gondolin and Angamandi for some trace of Elwing, who was taken while he was at sea. In some versions of the tale, Earendel and Elwing are reunited.
Poderiam eles se sentir excluídos da Redenção prometida, mantidos fora do Tempo Normal pelas "fronteiras" em torno de Aman e Erëssea?
Se o mundo de Tolkien se tornaria o nosso, como o Tolkien justificaria a memória dos elfos e "faërie" associada, por exemplo, ao Rei Arthur e suas lendas se não houvesse por aqui nenhum dos Eldar ( considerando o nível alto de magia implementada nas lendas) depois do fim da Quarta Era? E como explicar Avalon/Avalónnë que ele próprio pareceu ter considerado como sinônimos no fim das contas?
Eu desconfio que pelo menos alguns dos Eldar ou regressariam depois no fim da Quinta Era ( quem sabe, outra vez, sem a benção ou permissão dos Valar) ou elegeriam postergar a sua partida pro reino Abençoado, gerando, ao fim e ao cabo, a situação mais ou menos mostrada nas Brumas de Avalon, por exemplo. Ademais, não é dito que "a linhagem de Lúthien nunca findaria dentro dos Círculos do Mundo"?
Suspeito mesmo que parte do background de Brumas de Avalon da Marion Zimmer Bradley derivou de questionamentos feito esses aí embaixo, até
porque ela começou a carreira literária dela escrevendo fanfics no universo do SdA e a mitologia de Tolkien até nessa de ser uma "mitologia pra Inglaterra" teria que ser, em certa medida, uma espécie de "prequel" pra legenda arthuriana, quer Tolkien admitisse isso ou não.
Vide alguns tópicos de newsgroups onde isso foi discutido
Middle Earth and Arthurian Legend
Does anyone suppose that perhaps Tolkien had in mind
a specific connection between Arthurian legend and
his tales of Middle Earth. I always imagined that Arthur
was likely a descendent of Aragorn, and Excalibur
perhaps none other than Narsil/Anduril renamed yet
again. He has much in common with Aragorn besides
a magic sword: specifically his connection with elves.
Arthur apparently had both elvish blood and elvish
relatives, specifically his sister, Morgan le Fay. And it
is interesting that so many of Aragorns line start with
"Ar-"
And then, i have always imagined that Merlin might be
none other than Radagast, still hanging out in his
beloved Middle Earth after 6 thousand years.
Certainly Tolkien makes specific reference, in his
legends to the island of Avalon, (This is where the
mortally wounded Arthur is ultimately taken by Morgan
and two other elvish queens). It is mentioned as an
island that lies west of Numenor on the outskirts of Aman.
In referring to Morgan as "elvish" I am of course referring
to the more ancient versions of the tale. It is only later
that she came to be regarded merely as an evil sorceress
whose beauty was preserved by dark magic rather than
natural immortality.
-- John Whelan
One can always find similarities if one is imaginative, and that's what we are
talking about. Tolkien's works are not scientific treatises on mythology. The
Atlantis legend is unconnected to the Avalon legend. So what? Tolkien
connected them in his fiction. If Tolkien (or one of his admireres) were to
write fiction about the latter-day events on Tol Eressea and its dealing with
mortal lands such as Britain, one could just as easily relate Tolkien's Elves
with the Fairies (or at least, those "Fairies" that were associated with
Avalon) -- which seems an inevitably logical thing to do. I don't at all see
why one "ought not" or why this is inconsistent with the sort of stuff Tolkien
himself did.
I have not read Marion Zimmer Bradley. I am not surprised that she came up with this notion, though, because it is not an radical or weird one. I find
birth-legends interesting, and particularly in that they are, in origen, often
an excuse for denying someones apparent heritage and giving them an different
one. Take Moses, for example.
Here Tolkien makes an explicit parallel between Arthur's voyage to
Avalon and the voyages of Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli to Tol Eressea - *as
if* they were part of the same mythology, or could be part of the same
mythology; i.e., _if_ we were to put King Arthur into the universe of
Middle-earth, then his Avalonian destination would be Tol Eressea, but one
could not expect him to return.
Chris Csernica <cser...@ihwy.com> wrote:
>> Certainly Tolkien makes specific reference, in his
>> legends to the island of Avalon, (This is where the
>> mortally wounded Arthur is ultimately taken by Morgan
>> and two other elvish queens). It is mentioned as an
>> island that lies west of Numenor on the outskirts of Aman.
>Tol Eressea is the name of the island. Avallone is the haven on it.
Not until fairly late (1950s). Prior to that, Avalonne was the island. The
name seems to be one of the few instances (with "Earendil"), of direct
borrowing of names (although of course it stayed long after it's original
significance and link to Avalon was lost). The tale of Aelfwine fits in
neatly with this type of thing. (myths of an island, sometimes identified
with heaven, to the far west of the British Isles.)
Tem muito mais sobre isso
por aí
Tem até
livro publicado com idéias viajadas como essas.
