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E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Perdição?

Tópico em 'J.R.R. Tolkien e suas Obras (Diga Amigo e Entre!)' iniciado por N'liärien, 1 Fev 2006.

  1. N'liärien

    N'liärien Banned

    E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...
     
  2. Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Os Nazgûl chegariam o mais rápido o possível e farejariam o anel. O exército de Sauron continuaria enfraquecido porque a vontade de Sauron os abandonara. Sméagol seria seguido por Frodo e Sam com certeza (se ele os deixasse vivos) e pelos Nazgûl, e estaria totalmente entregue à sorte. Eu creio que seja mais provável que, tendo o olho de Sauron voltado a ele, Smeagol enfraqueceria e não escaparia, sendo pego pelos Nazgûl após um tempo. Não sei quanto demoraria para os Nazgûl chegarem, mas se o exército de Mordor tivesse recuado iria ser feliz para eles ver o Senhor do Escuro voltar e sair avançando contra os homens. Eu acho que iria morrer um pouquinho de homens nessa batalha e mais tarde o Sauron estaria acima de Minas Tirith enquanto os orcs empilhavam as cabeças.
     
  3. Shantideva

    Shantideva Adoro elfos ruivos!

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    A terra-média seria coberta por uma nova escuridão. Smeágol apesar de está de posse do anel, não tinha poder sobre ele. Os Nazgul chegariam lá mais rápidos que um raio, e levaria Frodo, Sam e Gollum à presença de Sauron. E aí, já era.
     
  4. Falassion

    Falassion Usuário

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Se Gollum recuperasse O Anel, em primeiro lugar usaria ele e ficaria invisível, tornando impossível que Sam e Frodo pegassem ele. Então, neste momento, Sauron saberia que o Anel estaria "aí dentro", aí para que ele recuperasse o Anel seria uma questão de tempo.
     
  5. Lady Ellwen

    Lady Ellwen Estelion Maia...

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Bom, os Nazgûls o pegaria, por q apesar de tudo gollum nap resistiria a eles e seria o fim pros homens por q eles soh ganharam a batalha por o Gollum caiu e destruiu o Anel
    Nao demoraria pra ele acabar com Minas Tirith e Valfenda
     
  6. Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Seria com completo desastre...apesar de ficar invisível e tudo mais...logo Sauron o capturaria...e assim seria o fim da T-M...mão acredito que ninguém possa resistir...e ficar com o anel...nem mesmo poderosos elfos como Elrond e Galadriel...
     
  7. Idril

    Idril Usuário

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Não seria o fim propriamente dito da Terra-média. Obviamente, a raça humana e outras que eram inimigas de Sauron seriam escravizadas logo após sofrerem uma baixa altíssima com os exércitos do Senhor do Escuro.

    Se Gollum não tivesse morrido, seria capturado pelos Nazgûl, assim como Frodo e Sam. E o destino dos três, arrisco faar que seria o pior possível.
     
  8. Olórin

    Olórin ai que uó

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    E se isso realmente aocntecesse? A Terra-Média ficaria mergulhada nas trevas eternamente?
    Depois de dominar toda a Terra-Média, ter todos a seus pés, o que o Sauron iria fazer?
    Será que os Valar não iriam fazer nada, eles iam deixar todos sob o domínio de Sauron? :tsc:
     
  9. N'liärien

    N'liärien Banned

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    GENTE ACHEI A CARTA NA QUAL TOLKIEN RESPONDE A ESTA PERGUNTA: CARTA 246, disponível aqui em Valinor.
     
  10. N'liärien

    N'liärien Banned

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    É genial a resposta de Tolkien: ele afirma que provavelmente Gollum se mataria, agarrado ao Um Anel, pois assim ele resolveria seus dois "problemas de vida": 1º Recuperar o Um Anel e ficar com ele "para sempre"; 2º Não permitir que Sauron recuperasse o Anel...
     
  11. Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Realmente, Tolkien é genial, uma bela resposta, trágico na medida certa, para criar veracidade, e o que provávelmente aconteceria, já que esses dois eram os maiores medos do Gollum(na verdade um era medo do Gollum, e o outro do Sméagol... :lol: )
     
  12. Almië

    Almië cute as a button

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...


    E ele não retomou??? E não caiu na lava?? E o anel não foi destruído junto com ele??
    O que Tolkien disse na carta, foi exatamente o que aconteceu!!
     
  13. Décimo

    Décimo The Swanson Code

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Pois, só que em circunstâncias diferentes. Todos sabemos o que aconteceu ao Gollum: tropeçou na berma do precipício e caíu. No entanto, a situação proposta por Tolkien sucede no caso de ele recuperar o Anel, não cair, e poder escolher o seu destino. Por isso essa hipótese proposta por Tolkien é tão original.
     
  14. N'liärien

    N'liärien Banned

    Re: E Se Gollum Retomasse Definitivamente O Anel, Na Fenda Da Aperdição?...

    Faço minhas as palavras do "10º membro", acima: Tolkein disse q Gollu, se retomasse o anel, na fenda, e pudesse decidir o que fazer, escolheria jogar-se na lava mortal; assim, ele: a) ficaria com o Um Anel; b) ñ deixaria q Sauron tomasse o anel, de volta;

    E c) obedeceria ao seu amor por Frodo e destruiria o anel!

    Este último aspecto tb está na carta de que falei e q analisa o "fracasso" de Frodo (está disponível aqui em Valinor).

    Abraços.
     
  15. Aracáno Elessar

    Aracáno Elessar Nietzsche

    A carta é bem pequena, colocarei aqui frisando pontos interessantes que possam vir a ser discutidos.

    246 From a letter to Mrs Eileen Elgar (drafts) September 1963
    [A reply to a reader's comments on Frodo's failure to surrender the Ring in the Cracks of Doom.]
    Very few (indeed so far as letters go only you and one other) have observed or commented on Frodo's 'failure'. It is a very important point.
    From the point of view of the storyteller the events on Mt Doom proceed simply from the logic of the tale up to that time. They were not deliberately worked up to nor foreseen until they occurred. But, for one thing, it became at last quite clear that Frodo after all that had happened would be incapable of voluntarily destroying the Ring. Reflecting on the solution after it was arrived at (as a mere event) I feel that it is central to the whole 'theory' of true nobility and heroism that is presented.
    Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. I do not say 'simple minds' with contempt: they often see with clarity the simple truth and the absolute ideal to which effort must be directed, even if it is unattainable. Their weakness, however, is twofold. They do not perceive the complexity of any given situation in Time, in which an absolute ideal is enmeshed. They tend to forget that strange element in the World that we call Pity or Mercy, which is also an absolute requirement in moral judgement (since it is present in the Divine nature). In its highest exercise it belongs to God. For finite judges of imperfect knowledge it must lead to the use of two different scales of 'morality'. To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve. To others, in any case of which we know enough to make a judgement, we must apply a scale tempered by 'mercy': that is, since we can with good will do this without the bias inevitable in judgements of ourselves, we must estimate the limits of another's strength and weigh this against the force of particular circumstances.
    I do not think that Frodo's was a moral failure. At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum – impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence) and had produced a situation in which the object of his quest could be achieved. His humility (with which he began) and his sufferings were justly rewarded by the highest honour; and his exercise of patience and mercy towards Gollum gained him Mercy: his failure was redressed.
    We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our soul-body structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his limits, and the blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.
    Nonetheless, I think it can be observed in history and experience that some individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or tasks that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their utmost limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a physical world – in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers, all along the road to whatever proved the breaking-point.
    Frodo undertook his quest out of love – to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a moral failure than the breaking of his body would have been – say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock.
    That appears to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be concealed by Frodo! But what Frodo himself felt about the events is quite another matter.
    He appears at first to have had no sense of guilt (III 224-5);1 he was restored to sanity and peace. But then he thought that he had given his life in sacrifice: he expected to die very soon. But he did not, and one can observe the disquiet growing in him. Arwen was the first to observe the signs, and gave him her jewel for comfort, and thought of a way of healing him. Slowly he fades 'out of the picture', saying and doing less and less. I think it is clear on reflection to an attentive reader that when his dark times came upon him and he was conscious of being 'wounded by knife sting and tooth and a long burden' (III 268) it was not only nightmare memories of past horrors that afflicted him, but also unreasoning self-reproach: he saw himself and all that he done as a broken failure. 'Though I may come to the Shire, it will not seem the same, for I shall not be the same.' That was actually a temptation out of the Dark, a last flicker of pride: desire to have returned as a 'hero', not content with being a mere instrument of good. And it was mixed with another temptation, blacker and yet (in a sense) more merited, for however that may be explained, he had not in fact cast away the Ring by a voluntary act: he was tempted to regret its destruction, and still to desire it. 'It is gone for ever, and now all is dark and empty', he said as he wakened from his sickness in 1420.
    'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.
    Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo, from the hobbit's childhood onwards. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake – it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved. (Cf III 252 lines 12 to 21 and 263 lines 1-2.)2 But he also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased : a trace of pride and personal possessiveness. Of course he was old and confused in mind, but it was still a revelation of the 'black mark' when he said in Rivendell (III 265) 'What's become of my ring, Frodo, that you took away?'; and when he was reminded of what had happened, his immediate reply was: 'What a pity! I should have liked to see it again'. As for reward for his pan, it is difficult to feel that his life would be complete without an experience of 'pure Elvishness', and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full the fragments of which had so delighted him.
    It is clear, of course, that the plan had actually been made and concerted (by Arwen, Gandalf and others) before Arwen spoke. But Frodo did not immediately take it in; the implications would slowly be understood on reflection. Such a journey would at first seem something not necessarily to be feared, even as something to look forward to – so long as undated and postponable. His real desire was hobbitlike (and humanlike) just 'to be himself again and get back to the old familiar life that had been interrupted. Already on the journey back from Rivendell he suddenly saw that was not for him possible. Hence his cry 'Where shall I find rest?' He knew the answer, and Gandalf did not reply. As for Bilbo, it is probable that Frodo did not at first understand what Arwen meant by 'he will not again make any long journey save one'. At any rate he did not associate it with his own case. When Arwen spoke (in TA 3019) he was still young, not yet 51, and Bilbo 78 years older. But at Rivendell he came to understand things more clearly. The conversations he had there are not reported, but enough is revealed in Elrond's farewell III 267.3 From the onset of the first sickness (Oct. 5, 3019) Frodo must have been thinking about 'sailing', though still resisting a final decision — to go with Bilbo, or to go at all. It was no doubt after his grievous illness in March 3020 that his mind was made up.
    Sam is meant to be lovable and laughable. Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very 'trying'. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity — by which I do not mean a mere 'down-to-earthiness' — a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional 'wisdom'. We only meet exceptional hobbits in close companionship – those who had a grace or gift: a vision of beauty, and a reverence for things nobler than themselves, at war with their rustic self-satisfaction. Imagine Sam without his education by Bilbo and his fascination with things Elvish! Not difficult. The Cotton family and the Gaffer, when the 'Travellers' return are a sufficient glimpse.
    Sam was cocksure, and deep down a little conceited; but his conceit had been transformed by his devotion to Frodo. He did not think of himself as heroic or even brave, or in any way admirable – except in his service and loyalty to his master. That had an ingredient (probably inevitable) of pride and possessiveness: it is difficult to exclude it from the devotion of those who perform such service. In any case it prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved, and from following him in his gradual education to the nobility of service to the unlovable and of perception of damaged good in the corrupt. He plainly did not fully understand Frodo's motives or his distress in the incident of the Forbidden Pool. If he had understood better what was going on between Frodo and Gollum, things might have turned out differently in the end. For me perhaps the most tragic moment in the Tale comes in II 323 ff. when Sam fails to note the complete change in Gollum's tone and aspect. 'Nothing, nothing', said Gollum softly. 'Nice master!'. His repentance is blighted and all Frodo's pity is (in a sense ) wasted. Shelob's lair became inevitable.
    This is due of course to the 'logic of the story'. Sam could hardly have acted differently. (He did reach the point of pity at last (III 221-222)4 but for the good of Gollum too late.) If he had, what could then have happened? The course of the entry into Mordor and the struggle to reach Mount Doom would have been different, and so would the ending. The interest would have shifted to Gollum, I think, and the battle that would have gone on between his repentance and his new love on one side and the Ring. Though the love would have been strengthened daily it could not have wrested the mastery from the Ring. I think that in some queer twisted and pitiable way Gollum would have tried (not maybe with conscious design) to satisfy both. Certainly at some point not long before the end he would have stolen the Ring or taken it by violence (as he does in the actual Tale). But 'possession' satisfied, I think he would then have sacrificed himself for Frodo's sake and have voluntarily cast himself into the fiery abyss.
    I think that an effect of his partial regeneration by love would have been a clearer vision when he claimed the Ring. He would have perceived the evil of Sauron, and suddenly realized that he could not use the Ring and had not the strength or stature to keep it in Sauron's despite: the only way to keep it and hurt Sauron was to destroy it and himself together – and in a flash he may have seen that this would also be the greatest service to Frodo. Frodo in the tale actually takes the Ring and claims it, and certainly he too would have had a clear vision – but he was not given any time: he was immediately attacked by Gollum. When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
    Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible.
    Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills. Even so for a long time his acts and commands would still have to seem 'good' to him, to be for the benefit of others beside himself.
    The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown 'servility'. They would have greeted Frodo as 'Lord'. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance 'to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes'. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177)5 – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of 'mortals' no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.
    Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the 'Mirror of Galadriel', 1381, it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. If so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self was not contemplated. One can imagine the scene in which Gandalf, say, was placed in such a position. It would be a delicate balance. On one side the true allegiance of the Ring to Sauron; on the other superior strength because Sauron was not actually in possession, and perhaps also because he was weakened by long corruption and expenditure of will in dominating inferiors. If Gandalf proved the victor, the result would have been for Sauron the same as the destruction of the Ring; for him it would have been destroyed, taken from him for ever. But the Ring and all its works would have endured. It would have been the master in the end.
    Gandalf as Ring-Lord would have been far worse than Sauron. He would have remained 'righteous', but self-righteous. He would have continued to rule and order things for 'good', and the benefit of his subjects according to his wisdom (which was and would have remained great).
    [The draft ends here. In the margin Tolkien wrote: 'Thus while Sauron multiplied [illegible word] evil, he left "good" clearly distinguishable from it. Gandalf would have made good detestable and seem evil.']


    Achei interessante o fato de aqui colocar a Carta citada por N'Liarien.
    Pois nela vemos a clara opinião de Tolkien, como dito por Almië, de Frodo ter falhado, no ponto em que ele não conseguiria por vontade própria destruir o Anel. E isso trouxe muitas necessidades e consequências, pois Frodo não falha moralmente, sentindo que sempre deveria continuar. Achei também muito interessante as colocações a respeito de supostos fins, como no caso de Aragorn tentar usar o Um Anel, ou Ólorin. Nestes casos fica claro, a falta de poder de um mortal para lidar com algo que não assustaria Sauron, pois o Anel fora seu a princípio, mesmo Sauron temendo o Poder de Gondor em seu atual frágil estado. E caso Ólorin usasse o Um, então teríamos sua sabedoria como arbítrio em Endor, tendo ele submetido a seu julgamento a vontade dos povos livres, o que no fim, faria o seu sensato uso do Um para o bem, tornar-se um mal distorcido.

    Abraços.
     
    Última edição: 12 Fev 2006
  16. N'liärien

    N'liärien Banned

    Não tinha lido ainda a carta em inglês e fico feliz de ver que a tradução colocada em Valinor é mesmo fiel, em letra e espírito, ao q disse o mestre.

    Arácano, onde vc conseguiu o texto em inglês?

    ________________

    A todos, digo q me espanta este sentido q Tolkien dá, ao fracasso: fracasso ñ enquanto falha em atingir o objetivo que nos foi fixado pelo senso comum; mas sim, fracasso como o não exercício do máximo esforço q nos era exigível, pelo senso divino...

    Fantástico...
     
  17. lomendil

    lomendil Usuário

    aracano essa carta vc conseguiu onde?
     

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