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A segunda profecia de Mandos


O que vocês acharam? Gostaram da Segunda Profecia de Mandos? Dos finais dos Tempos? A volta do caos, a destruição e por fim o recomeço.

"A Batalha então concluirá e renovará a existência do Reino de Arda, a Terra, e todos os Poderes do Oeste voltarão a ser jovens, e os Elfos voltarão acordar, sem as lembranças da sua vida passada. Em seguida, haverá uma segunda Música dos Ainur, que será cantada para dar existência a um novo Mundo. Nessa música, todos os Filhos de Ilúvatar cantarão juntos, fazendo-a ainda mais bela que a primeira. Mas dessa Música e do novo Mundo, os Ainur nada sabem."

Fica, para mim, uma dúvida. Será um ciclo que se fecha? Podendo se repetir todo o mal e todo bem. Ou será como uma espiral? Que ao dar a volta não se fecha, mas sim se eleva garantindo um crescimento?

Por que será que Tolkien abandonou este belíssimo conto? Foi uma pena, pois se este contexto fosse levado a fundo pelo autor e até mesmo ter criado uma obra baseada nos finais dos tempos, ficaria algo fantástico?

O que acham?


Eu também gosto bastante dessa profecia, especialmente da parte onde se diz que o Turin seria posto a lutar ao lado de Tulkas, e seria dele o golpe final contra Melkor (apoteótico e merecido!)

Porém, se não estou enganada, parece que o Tolkien abandonou essa idéia. Outros mais informados talvez possam esclarecer melhor.
Essa profecia é bem enigmática, A meu ver caso Tolkien tivesse realmente tido tempo de terminar o conto ela seria como o Apocalipse do Legendárium o que seria incrível.


Uma vez li, não me lembro onde, que a profecia não fala o que vai acontecer com os homens, e o único mencionado é Túrin. Mas, não me parece correto. Visto que ela menciona que todos os filhos cantarão....

"A Batalha então concluirá e renovará a existência do Reino de Arda, a Terra, e todos os Poderes do Oeste voltarão a ser jovens, e os Elfos voltarão acordar, sem as lembranças da sua vida passada. Em seguida, haverá uma segunda Música dos Ainur, que será cantada para dar existência a um novo Mundo. Nessa música, todos os Filhos de Ilúvatar cantarão juntos, fazendo-a ainda mais bela que a primeira. Mas dessa Música e do novo Mundo, os Ainur nada sabem."
Essa coisa de criação-destruição-renovação é uma coisa muito pagã pra ser por demais valorizada por Tolkien, acho. Você pode entender isso como a parúsia, a segunda vinda de Cristo, que virá para julgar os vivos e os mortos e estabelecer seu Reino sobre os novos céus e nova terra renovados, expulsar o Mal do Mundo e fundar a Nova Jerusalém. Isso está no Apocalipse de são João.

Isso sim devia passar na cabeça do professor, mas lembremos que isso extrapola o legendarium, é uma das pontes entre a obra e o mundo real, como quando é dito que a História dos livros se passa entre a Queda e muito antes da Encarnação de Eru, isto é, a Primeira Vinda de Cristo.


Fanfic da "Segunda Profecia" publicado em Mallorn números 34 e 35, feito de acordo com o conteúdo tardio de HoME. Quem conhece manja logo, logo a referência ao estilo de H.P.Lovecraft.


This story has been published in the Tolkien Society periodical `Mallorn'.

by Anthony Appleyard
<This story is set far in Middle Earth's future, in the age of Man. I
apologise for writing here about a subject so unlike most Tolkien-inspired
matter, but the Great End is a part of his mythology, and I felt that the
possible events leading up to it need exploring.>
We await the great battle which has been gathering, all too likely the Last
Battle and the End of Days. Men unknowing awoke the forces which are gathering
for this battle, in which I fear that little of the world of Men as we know it
will survive. Whether or not my account will survive it, I record what I know.
I used to read the old stories about when there were other sentient beings
than Men on Earth. They talk of immortal Elves, who long ago departed, or
faded until now they need a great effort to become visible to Men, and few Men
believe that they exist. They talk of Dwarves, skilled smiths and miners who
lived four times as long as Men. They talk of evil beings called Orcs and
Trolls and dragons who they say were hunted out long ago. But I have seen none
of such beings, only Men, and reports of ancient huge or deformed skeletons
which are as likely to be remains of irrelevant animals or strange bygone
races of Men. They talk of long-lived mighty part-Elvish men called Dunedain,
whose blood is now completely mixed with that of other men, and their identity
is lost. And they talk of Valar, and Melkor who became Morgoth. I thought
little of tales of such beings - but now Men all too well know otherwise.
It happened when Men felt confined within the realm of Earth, and wanted to
travel further. At first fictional characters travelled among the stars which
real men had no hope of reaching; reading such stories satisfied many, but in
some as they looked up at the stars it awoke the space-longing even more, and
in the end drove them to make it as real as they could at great labour and
cost. Huge fuel-greedy craft which could only be used once laboured to get a
few men into near Earth orbit, and later to try to reach the Moon. The effort
faded as men saw at last that it was leading to little of practical use, and
would soon have died out, when a man called Aniwa discovered a power that
makes spacecraft much smaller and far farther and faster travelling. How he
discovered it, working alone, he never revealed, but it works, and men can
copy it easily, and now with little trouble Men can quickly routinely travel
far across space. One such drive unit can activate another - some wondered who
or what had activated his first unit.
What we did when we found the Earth englobed in that strange invisible hard
barrier, is what started it. When we found that our new craft fitted out to
travel far and fast for months were shut in like caged falcons unable to go
more than a few hours' flight from Earth, a few remembered old tales of the
`Walls of Night' and their making, and saw an end of our plans and that Men
belong on Earth where they arose, and many now say that we should have obeyed
them; but others called for breaking out of the cage despite any natural or
supernatural consequences. The barrier withstood unmarked all that we used on
it, and some in our crews repented and said we should return home and scrap
our spacecraft and leave the Outside alone to Those who made it; but while
those who thought so talked with us, one of us made a blasting weapon out of a
spare Aniwa drive unit that we had. Before it the ancient barrier started to
melt at last. The stuff, whatever it was, was abominably hard to cut, and
often resealed itself, or went into weird shapes, and many times we found
another layer of it behind what we could see; but at last we got through it,
and learned how to deal easily and quickly with any other such barriers we
might come across. We left a radio beacon there, and flew out through the
weapon-melted breach in that ancient defence, and away from it, away from
Earth, out of any appointed ordered realm that the barrier defined into the
ownerless void beyond, and knew not what we had done.
After the dread deed, men came and went routinely through that gap and
others that we made later, until an exploring party of three spaceships found
Him, first as a distant radar echo. Aniwa, who was with us, had directed us to
explore that particular region of space, and persuaded us to investigate that
particular echo, but would not say why. Finding the being caused a sensation,
and what we now know to be the truth went unnoticed among many strange
theories as to what he was. After what others have written, suffice it to say
that we shot his chains off him, and taught him our modern language and how
events had passed in our world.
He had been chained cruelly, doubled with his head against his knees, with
the chain welded not only to manacles and leg-fetters but also to an iron
collar {FTN: <Silmarillion> p252}, and it was years before he could easily
straighten fully unaided; and he was very weak. The collar was of ordinary
steel, unlike the other pieces, and ultrasound scans in an onboard workshop
found buried in it mangled ornamentation and remains of three round attachment
points as if it had been forge-hammered from something else long ago; one of
us thought he recognised what it had been made from, and in alarm quoted
ancient legends, and we should have heeded him. The being patiently endured
cutter splatter burns as we removed the remains of his bonds, and the ordeal
of being pulled nearer to straight by a powerful constructor craft's
grapple-arms and fitted with a spring-loaded orthopaedic back-harness; making
it found a better use for cut pieces of the vast chain that we had rid him of.
We healed him as we could of the effects of his ordeal of long captivity,
and of a bad face scar and a foot crippled by a wound (he said from a workshop
accident) {FTN: <Silmarillion> p154}. He thanked us, and helped us much to
develop space technology. Then he left us, he said to return to his people,
carrying a deadlier light than the three jewels that we now know caused him
long pain of old, and a deadlier load than the chains which we shot off him,
for, all too disastrously deceived as to his identity and true intent, we gave
him a power and propulsion unit like those in our larger armed spacecraft,
strapped to his back, also connected to and feeding and rebuilding his body's
natural power system.
There is a small spaceship that we cannot trace to anywhere we know of that
builds or services them. We come across it occasionally in space. It carries
an extremely bright light which can be seen like a star from far away, and has
to be very carefully shielded out when it is near. Sometimes its light can be
seen from Earth, as a distant moving star - and some remember that such a
moving star has been seen long before Men flew or went into space. There is
one man in it, or through his cabin windows he looks like a man, and he has
onboard radio, but he cannot understand our language, nor we his. Its outside
bears writings in an alphabet that we do not know. We tried to follow him down
to his homeworld once, but somewhere inside the Barrier he gave us the slip
among a strange invisible force field and vanished. The being that we found
chained adrift in space told us that his old home is hidden there.
What is happening when Earth-born Men `break the bounds set on them long ago
by the Valar and crossing Ea reach other Ardar which some say should have been
allowed to develop in their own time' (as some put it), is all too much like
the past. I apologize for talking like old legends, but all too well we now
know that many things they tell of are true, same as few modern men believed
that Numenor had existed until submarines found its remains. Likewise few
believed in Valar or anything like them, until a spaceship found Him. So men
explore, in craft much faster and farther travelling and more powerful with
the improvements that the being taught us, and see strange things, and take
what they will from other worlds, or settle among those born and bred there,
shooting through any defences that they found on or around them. Or they find
a world with no sentient beings, and call it free for the taking; but it
belongs not to Men but is in trust for whatever sentient beings will arise on
it native in future ages. High ideals fade.
I will tell of a planet that we found. Its natives look similar to Men, but
different enough to show that they are not of our world. Their society, all
over the planet alike, was in fixity of obeying the words of One who had died
so long ago that they no longer knew how long ago he lived, preserved in a
Book whose language their current spoken language had long ago evolved far
from; their priesthood tightly controlled belief and observance and quickly
summoned squads or armies or fanatical mobs to suppress what little innovation
ever arose. They held that their religion established its rule in heroic war
against a vast alliance of corrupt oppressive kings and evil monsters; but
archaeology later seemed to show that it, having already spread widely,
covered the rest of that world by using and then suppressing a starting
technologization. Their inhabitable lands are not scattered as on Earth but
grouped close, and routine contact stopped them from evolving different ways
in different places, and so no local independences or individualities
returned. Only on one remote island group in their big ocean did we find
natives with other gods and language. But that religion kept their society
ordered and stable - until we landed and sought contact with them.
Some at first welcomed us, but their priests warned them against us and
tried to exorcise us, and said we were the Enemy from Outside who had rampaged
for a while but were driven out when their religion was founded at the end of
the Time of Darkness when their world was young. When in their unquestioning
obedience they attacked in endless hordes, our ships' weapons consumed them as
they came, and their bones and swords crumble under many bulldozed Hills of
the Slain, until they had to leave our landing-grounds alone: and they knew
that their priests' and Book's millennia-backed assurances of victory were
false. Having no other recourse, some again contacted us, and we took control
over their planet, and taught them things other than what their Book and
priests had let them hear, and their minds opened to many things. When we had
finished, their ancient and one Belief was split into a dozen irreconcilable
variants, and many of them rejected all such belief, and we taught them our
science and technology; and they give themselves and their children many names
that in the old days would have been utterly forbidden. Now they easily
explore the depths of their oceans, and in need of supplies slay beasts and
enter land that belief and legend had for ages kept sacred, and some of them
fare across space with us, and thank us for breaking them out of their long
stasis; we get much supplies and help from there. But they and their world are
troubled by many things that did not afflict them before we came; only a
remnant follow their old belief or try to reestablish its old power.
On that planet, as in many such conflicts new and old, those who held to
their old belief vowed that their gods would fight against us, but nothing
came of it, or else whatever is there stays hidden and will choose its time.
We joked that some time one such set of native gods would prove to exist and
would offer effective resistance: until on one world it actually happened.
We landed there and contacted some natives. Nearly all worshipped the same
gods, although they spoke many languages and their continents and islands are
scattered widely across oceans; an unchanging ruling priesthood kept tight
watch and control over them. As we learned some of their languages, some were
friendly, and some hostile; holy-men stirred up trouble against us. War
started, and those who supported us asked us to defend them. Our bases on that
world were in danger and seemed like to be overrun by fury of numbers aided
much by weapons and armour that we had not expected from unmechanized people,
working by means unknown to the people who used them. As war swayed back and
forth many times, we heard tell of a place in one of their oceans where few
sea-ships went, where winds and currents flowed strangely; the holy-men,
urging their people to resist us, said that help to secure victory would, as
always before, be sent by something in there. The natives bowed towards the
place as they appealed to their gods. It was said that very rarely someone
from outside was allowed in there and back out to his people and told varying
tales of wonders waiting for those who died in rightful battle; but there are
many such beliefs and word-tricks to get warriors to fight harder. We sent a
craft over the sea to look at the place described; the craft took damage from
something hidden, and it was said that the Gods would indeed defend their own.
Many sided with us, for the holy-men and local lords who aided them were
dominating and enforced many heavy taxes and petty rules, intending the best
but causing murmurings and dislike, and many natives saw in us at last another
help than uselessly appealing to the Gods against the Gods' own agents.
We explored in force, expecting to find likeliest nothing at all or a patch
of rocks and rip-currents, or perhaps a hidden sea-ship base or the like. As
we got near, what seemed like a great wind threw our ships aside with mighty
power. Some said that we should have left it alone, but others were unwilling
to leave something so powerful unknown and reported to be hostile behind our
lines, and warlikeness drove us. What had seemed to be a small dangerous sea
area where matter and sailors' compasses behaved strangely turned out to our
amazement to be a ground-level space-warping hiding a large hidden area: it
was as tales had told. By then we knew how to tackle that sort of defence,
although with difficulty. We gathered all our craft. The barrier pushed all
things round itself, and distorted vision and weight ever more as we pushed
into it; madness and great weariness dwelt there. Our ships' drives strained,
and their autopilots barely coped with the random blows that pushed us about.
Nothing of ancient tale could have travelled that road. But we got through the
hardest part of the barrier. A voice warning us off seemed to come from
nowhere in particular, but we ignored it, and got through.
Even we felt wonder seeing the large well-ordered land hidden behind the
ancient mighty barrier. Friendly natives who came with us looked at it and our
deeds there with dread, for their oldest legends spoke of that land; one of
them said "Then it is true! The Gods live there. Once long ago they were open
to all until the evil arose and They fenced themselves off and from there at
times send secret aid. I hoped to go there after death; I fear to tread on it
unbidden in the body.". The oldest legends of Earth mention similar hidden
lands, but such tales were not our concern, and we heeded them little.
At first we fully intended merely to explore and make contact and come to
terms; by then we knew their main languages. But They who ruled in there
formed up against us, and hurled the gale and the lightning, and power blasts
that seemed to come from themselves and not from anything they wielded; we in
the haste of battle did not know for certain, and when all was over we had no
way of finding; they said that we had no permission to use our ships' type of
drive power, and ordered us to surrender our ships, and threatened to pursue
fast and far. No good came from such words as we and they managed to exchange.
It was the seat of their ancient might, inaccessible to all for thousands of
years, and we had broken into it. Awe at seeing such mighty Beings should have
stopped us, but instinct to fight back drove us on, and we were not in a mood
to flee; we had little trust that after fleeing pursued far many of us would
escape alive, or that we could escape through the barrier at all; we were shut
in there with such defence as we had brought with us. Someone in one of our
ships ignored orders and fired back. The Beings replied in full force, and we
had to fight back to save our lives.
I will not weary the reader with a long list of destruction wreaked by both
sides. Battle swayed back and forth, but with our ships' new weapons we were
as powerful as Them, and we demolished the forts and collapsed the cave-holds
as we converged on Their capital; ancient forests of huge trees burnt. After a
sharp dangerous final fight They withered in our energy beams as we cleaned
their last stronghold out. Our ships needed long refitting and repair before
we could have fought that battle again; but we had won. The Fence round that
land vanished. One of Them had been seen to try to escape upwards, and may
have got away to seek help. The feeling of their presence that even through
our ships' metal hulls we had felt somewhat, was gone. Something very ancient
and fair perished because it opposed us, brushed aside as routinely as our
ancestors in a colonial war several generations ago felling an ancient tree
for its wood or shelling a breach in a stone city wall which in previous
centuries could have withstood a long seige heroic in story.
We and our local allies landed, and there was nothing any more to resist us
or to keep outside natives subject. Those who had been privileged to live
there at the feet of their Powers and serve them directly and know some of
their secrets, had shared in defeat and disaster and could only look on. That
which for ages had been merely a distant name of worship and hope was visible
to all, wrecked beyond redemption. The deep caverns where the souls of that
world's dead were said to go, were collapsed and filled with fallen mountains.
The Blue Hall on top of that land's highest mountain had been an awesome
unreachable name in countless sacred songs and oaths; now it was an immense
unsafe ruin for us to blow up to clear the site for a communications and radar
station. As ruler of its site, from the King of their Powers to a construction
foreman with a two-way radio was a pitiful comedown, but we had brought it
about. He nicknamed the site `Taniquetil', idly taking a name from childhood
tales - and knew not what that name meant in its full import.
Remote rule from high with little hope of appeal, however well intentioned,
had brought on the Rulers the inevitable result, many ten thousand years
delayed, but at last it had happened. Some say that men do need a god or gods,
whether real or not, as a focus of loyalties and an alleged author of rules
needed to keep society orderly. From what those beings, or whatever they were,
said to each other in our hearing, it seems that even they, mighty in strength
and skill, believed in a god who they said made them and the universe. The one
who we had found and unchained had complained to us that even among them there
was rule by order from the top and lack of opportunity for individualism, and
thus he had been chained and exiled long ago.
Some legends say that such beings once ruled the Earth. If so, they have
gone or remain hidden, and their ability to see and know and rightly decide
all things is less than some claim: in the `First Age' whatever the souls of
the dead going to Mandos (as They said was their fate), and the `Eagles of
Manwe' and suchlike, told the Powers, the Powers did not act on it of their
own decision, but Earendil the sailor had to struggle to their land through
fearsome sea-obstacles with much news that was not known there before, and
prod them into coming out and intervening.
To that once-hidden land sea and air routes now run straight for all as to
other lands. Men and natives land or settle there and use whatever they find
there, with less and less respect for `ancient legend come to life' as each
year passes. They plant commonly and unconsideredly on roadside and park many
kinds of trees once precious, many found in the Hidden Land only, some of
those even there rare, forcing them by technology to propagate in plenty when
the Powers had made them otherwise to keep them scarce and sacred - even as
our `White Tree', once famed in legend and a treasure of Kings, when crudely
dosed in flower with an antiriot gas in a time of disorder seeded heavily and
became common. They treat the desolations of battle as a natural part of the
Hidden Land; to a former sea-hold of the immortal Powers, now melted out into
a huge energy weapon crater where wild vegetation now unaided by Her named the
Fruit-giver struggles to hide the marks of violence and the burnt-out forest
about, men and technologized natives now come to sail and scuba dive on rest
days, and treat the crater-harbour as a natural part of the scenery.
We found remains of devices and skills of the Powers, and knew that by now
Men had duplicated all of them. There we have a new main base, where we and
natives build and service aircraft and spacecraft and build up technologies in
the land of Those who denied them such `forbidden arts' for countless thousand
years. They study what remains of the former Inhabitants' marvellous buildings
and constructions, and sometimes try imperfectly to reconstruct one of them.
They explore with us and thank us for overthrowing the Powers who dwelt there
and the priesthood that They enforced the ancient rule and stasis through, but
others regret the death of what had been there before we came, and by force of
habit still bow towards that land when they thank or appeal to their gods.
I have seen what we and they made of the Hall of Judgement, formerly allowed
to be named only in a few special ceremonies. It and the area about survived
the battle nearly intact, and those who had lived there had sought to keep it;
but it became the centrepiece of a technology area which obliterated with
unattractive new non-matching buildings the nearby open-air Ring of Judgement
of ancient legend and oath; their builders felled timber where they would. It
was renamed after a native who had died two centuries before for discovering
and teaching forbidden technology. Such things we and natives did in what was
once the Land of the Deathless, and cared not that some of the natives who
went into the mountains behind the site to commemorate said that a shapeless
presence, the ghost of a ghost, still clung to the five-mile-wide melted-out
hollow where that world's Powers had made their last stand.
Long ago the Numenoreans deforested and plundered Eriador, and lesser men
who lived there fought back in vain or sought aid from Sauron, say old tales.
Now it is the same again, and there has been betrayals and changings of sides,
and it has been said that that same servant of the Being who we unchained had
remained hidden on Earth, with little power left after long-ago defeats, down
the ages until he at last found Aniwa able and willing to listen to him and to
give us and him the means of reaching and freeing his master, regardless of
what else might come of it. Of such origin we now know is the power in our
spacecraft with their names of onwardness and far travelling that have broken
Men out of the world of their origin; but it is too late to go back to the
start now.
Armed men and their native allies in armoured spacesuits drive powerful
vehicles out of spacecraft and bulldoze anything in the way aside to make
roads and fortified camps. Men by the thousand, each in a propulsor spacesuit
with its own long-trip life-support system, descend on faraway worlds and take
over, and when they unsuit after months on end in those suits they smell like
stale sewage and are proud of it as a symbol of hardy far travelling in rough
conditions as in holy streams and springs they wash their spacesuits and
undersuits, or make burlesque of that or another world's native sacred rites
and tales, or steal sacred things, or shoot at anything they will. Men gouge
out areas of land in search for metals, pushing aside whatever or whoever
dwelt there before. Men waste time trying to establish contact with what prove
to be nonsentient animals, and then fail to recognize actual sentient beings.
Failure to understand on contact leads to enforcement and conquest, and arming
people who should not be armed. The power of Earth has grown great, as the
power of Numenor had, for the beings that the legends called Ainur scattered
across space have been slow to gather and to summon and arm allies and to be
persuaded to leave their own worlds, and not quickly has come the gathering of
the armies for the Last Battle and the End of Days. But it is coming.

Tolkien, J.R.R., 1977, <The Silmarillion> London: George Allen & Unwin


Última edição:


Ele descartou a profecia, mas não descartou a batalha e a ideia de fim de mundo.
Mas a batalha e a idéia de fim de mundo não estão justamente na profecia? Quer dizer, ele pode ter descartado algumas idéias da profecia, como a volta de Túrin, por exemplo, mas talvez não a profecia em si?

Fanfic da "Segunda Profecia" publicado em Mallorn números 34 e 35, feito de acordo com o conteúdo tardio de HoME.
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Cara, essas fanfictions são ótimas para fazer nossa imaginação voar e enriquecer as reflexões sobre as histórias do Tolkien.
Eu não sei se entendi tudo direito (minha fluência no inglês não é tão boa assim, infelizmente), mas essa fic poderia muito bem servir de especulação para a Batalha Final e o Fim dos Dias que não foram narrados.

Eu só fico confusa com a geografia da coisa. Na fanfiction, se eu entendi, o Melkor foi encontrado no espaço; no Silmarillion está escrito que ele foi mandado para fora dos círculos do mundo, certo? Então podemos aceitar que ele poderia sim estar pairando no espaço. Mas onde estaria Valinor? Ela está escondida, tudo bem, mas ainda está na Terra (Arda)?


We are infinite.
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Mas a batalha e a idéia de fim de mundo não estão justamente na profecia? Quer dizer, ele pode ter descartado algumas idéias da profecia, como a volta de Túrin, por exemplo, mas talvez não a profecia em si?
A versão final por Tolkien é completamente diferente na contida na profecia é completamente diferente da versão final imaginada por Tolkien. A profecia surgiu por causa da ideia de fim de mundo, não o contrário.

Aliás, nas versões finais creio que nem há mais referências a uma profecia.


A versão final por Tolkien é completamente diferente na contida na profecia é completamente diferente da versão final imaginada por Tolkien. A profecia surgiu por causa da ideia de fim de mundo, não o contrário.

Aliás, nas versões finais creio que nem há mais referências a uma profecia.
O texto em forma de poema do Contos Inacabados , falando em rumores que vem do Oeste em "sonhos" ou algo assim dá a entender que existe uma profecia de algum tipo, passada em algum lugar pra alguém mas que essa profecia não seria mais uma Profecia proferida por Mandos.

Em HoME XII, ao falar da Profecia da Última Batalha pela derradeira vez Tolkien falou que era uma profecia feita por Andreth, personagem introduzida pros leitores em HoME X.

Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath

From the West-that-was
a wind bore it
to the sleeper's ear,
in the silences
under night-shadow
when news is brought
from lands forgotten
and lost ages
over seas of years
to the searching thought
A noção tb de que a profecia de Andreth mencionando o papel de Túrin na Última Batalha se refira de fato à Guerra da Ira e não à Dagor Dagorath não é ponto pacífico embora seja a interpretação dada por CT. A confusão acontece pq Tolkien chamou ambas as Batalhas de Last Battle e aí o meio de campo ficou confuso.

A ilação feita por CT presumindo que, nessa profecia, Túrin iria tomar o lugar de Eärendil na War of Wrath pq Tolkien disse que ele mataria Ancalagon pode não ser a correta pq, afinal de contas, seria muito fácil inventar que , na verdade, Ancalagon tinha hibernado em virtude da sua derrota na Guerra da Ira ( a la Godzila) e poderia despertar pra Batalha do Juízo Final mesmo, assim como Jormungand , a serpente de Midgard, lutaria com Thor no Ragnarök que, como o próprio CT admitiu, é a origem pra idéia de conectar o Túrin redivivo lutando contra um Grande Dragão na "Última Batalha", idéia que ele transplantou pro seu análogo Sigurd em Sigurd e Gudrun, fazendo o looping completo.

Conrad Dunkerson e Jallan concordam comigo nessa leitura. Christopher Tolkien provavelmente se equivocou quando deduziu isso ao editar HoME XII.

As I said recently in another post... if Turin and Morgoth can
return from the dead for the Last Battle why not Ancalagon? OR, if
Earendil is now NOT to slay Ancalagon what need be there to assume
that Ancalagon dies at the end of the First Age rather than some
later time... the end of days for instance? This one aberrant
passage could be taken as a mistake, name re-use, or a passing
fancy that Ancalagon might have survived and been thrust into the
Void with Morgoth.
A mitologia nórdica influencia Tolkien que , retroativamente, insere "tolkienismo" na mitologia nórdica ( leia-se "cristianiza" a personalidade de Odin e sua relação com Sigurd ficando implícita a identidade desse último com Thor já que é em relação a esse último que a profecia da Voluspá fala de enfrentar Midgardsormr) e , depois, reabsorve esse elemento com novo empréstimo dessa mitologia.

Ou seja, à semelhança do que teria acontecido com Jeová e o Cristo na religião cristã, Odin teria encarnado seu filho divino como um humano predestinado fazendo Thor viver um período mortal na Terra na identidade de Sigurd que, ao morrer, se tornaria o messias predestinado que enfrentaria um demônio ou dragão no Juízo Final. Coincidência ou não, é justamente isso que ocorreu no Universo Marvel onde realmente Siegfried era Thor encarnado como ser humano por vontade de Odin.

The problem was shared by many Christian antiquarians in
the nineteenth century, from Grundtvig's countryman and antagonist Peter Erasmus Muller - eventually Bishop of Sjaelland, who nevertheless published a book 'On the Genuineness of the Asa-Teaching' first in German and then in Danish in 1811/1812. using the terms Echtheit and Asalehre,JEgthed and Asalceren respectively - to George Stephens, the passionately,anti-German English professor in Copenhagen, who in 1878 published a very strange book indeed, Thunor the Thunderer carved on a Scandinavian font of about the year 1000: the first yet found god figure of our Scando-Gothic forefathers, in which he tried to argue, in curiously roundabout fashion, that Thor. Thunor and Christ were all in some way to be identified.
Stephens actually defies paraphrase, but Tolkienists will understand it if I say simply that like Miiller he is putting forward a 'splintered light" thesis.
[9] Even in the recently-published draft Lays, it is clear that, like an improbable proto-Frodo, Sigurd, shows a desire to demonstrate compassion and healing powers. Tolkien’s baptism of the heathen tales takes other forms of expression as well: Götterdämmerung, the twilight of the gods, becomes the day of Doom, Hel becomes Hell, faith is described as the most important object for mankind, and Sigurd becomes the World’s chosen, who dies once but never dies:

If in day of Doom

One deathless stands,

Who death hath tasted

And dies no more,

The serpent-slayer,

Seed of Ódin,

Then all shall not end,

Nor Earth perish.

Sometimes the fusion of the heathen and the Christian in Tolkien’s Lays is more bewildering than apologetically successful:

Thus soon came Sigurd

The sword bearing

To glad Valhöll

Greeting Ódin.

There feast he long

At his father’s side,

For War waiting,

The World’s chosen.

Here we see Sigurd as a Jesus leading the heavenly choir on the day of judgement, or as Archangel Michael (parenthetically the name Tolkien gave his second son; the firstborn was baptized Christopher), or a Saint George killing the dragon. It would have made the Wagner who wrote Der Ring des Nibelungen about the just Götterdämmerung of the corrupt, authoritative gods nauseous.
Resumindo: não é 100% certa a inferência de que Tolkien teria descartado o papel de um Túrin revivido ( e de um Beren) na Última Batalha, a idéia desse descarte ou decote parece não bater com a analogia com o Ragnarök ( ainda em voga como o próprio CT admitiu em Sigurd e Gudrun, reforçada pela ressurreição pra peitar um grande dragão) e com a idéia meio profética ( tem todo o jeito de ser presciente) passada por Finduilas de que "a estatura de Túrin alcançará Morgoth em um dia distante que ainda virá",.

The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come.
Isso não é opinião só minha vide Minas Tirith Forums: The End of Arda or the Apocalypse of Tolkien:

Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath

I point this out mainly to indicate the difficulties Christopher Tolkien faced.

But it is difficult to see that the Elves had no traditions of prophecy, unless the first prophecy of Mandos and Ulmo's prohecies to Turgon and Tuor are also to be rejected as Mannish invention.

But Tolkien may have later restored a version of the prophecy of the Last Battle. In The Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME 12), chapter XII, "The Problem of Ros", Notes, 17, we find in a note about the four languages used by Eärendil when he spoke his plea to Manwë:

<< The language of the Folk of Haleth was not used, for they had perished and would not rise again. Nor would their tongue be heard again, unless the prophecy of Andreth the Wise-woman should prove true, that Túrin in the Last Battle should return from the Dead, and before he left the Circles of the World for ever should challenge the Great Dragon of Morgoth, Ancalagon the Black, and deal him the death-stroke. >>

Christopher Tolkien follows this with citation and discucssion of his father's earlier writings about the return of Túrin, originally to slay Melko himself. Christopher Tolkien then interprets the Last Battle mentioned here as the Last Battle of Beleriand, called the "Last Battle" later in this essay, and believes that Túrin is here taking on the role of the slayer of Ancalagon which earlier accounts, and the published Silmarillion, give to Eärendil.

I'm not at all sure Christopher Tolkien is correct here. His father's use of the subjunctive in his note seems to me to point more strongly to something that has not yet happened from the point of view of the writer, and might not happen.
Detalhe: tanto eu quanto outras pessoas como a Marie Barnfield* ( em texto publicado em 1994 em Mallorn que descobri recentemente), achamos que o nome de Túrin é uma variante da forma céltica do nome indo-germânico que deu origem a Thor parente de Thunder (Trovão), Donar(germânico), Donner e Thunor(anglo-saxão): Taran ( galês),Taranis (gaulês) e Tuireann( gaélico) , reforçando ainda mais a conexão com a idéia de ser "divinizado" que enfrenta um gigantesco leviatã na Batalha do Apocalipse. Resumindo: o Túrin de Tolkien pode estar destinado a se transformar no Deus do Trovão dos Valar, assim como o Sigurd de Tolkien ressuscitaria ( subentende-se) como o Thor Redivivo no Juízo Final. A correlação entre Thor e Taranis/Taran o deus celta foi apontada pela primeira vez no século XIX pelo Jacob Grimm, um dos dois irmão célebres. Ou seja , não é nenhuma novidade ou piração "New Age".

*Eu cheguei à mesma conclusão independentemente antes de topar com o artigo dela.

Depois a noção foi reforçada pelo Owen Connelan tradutor pro inglês e autor das notas do livro de Mícheál Ó Cléirigh Os Anais dos Quatro Mestres

Túrin Turambar and the Tale of the. Fosterling. Mallorn 31, p. 29-36

Jormungand, Midgardsormr, A Serpente de Midgard, adversária profetizada de Thor no fatídico Ragnarök

Let's fight!!

Eu só fico confusa com a geografia da coisa. Na fanfiction, se eu entendi, o Melkor foi encontrado no espaço; no Silmarillion está escrito que ele foi mandado para fora dos círculos do mundo, certo? Então podemos aceitar que ele poderia sim estar pairando no espaço. Mas onde estaria Valinor? Ela está escondida, tudo bem, mas ainda está na Terra (Arda)?
O fanfic está correto. Como a leitura do tópico linkado por Meneldur em uma mensagem prévia mostrará pra vc (onde ele e eu discorremos a respeito do "Apocalipse" tolkieniano), a noção de Melkor acorrentado e sem pés banido pro Vazio( Noite Primordial) fora de Eä ( Espaço-Tempo) é uma idéia apócrifa ou hipérbole poética do final da Quenta Silmarillion mas não a verdade literal dentro do Mundo Subcriado.

Na verdade, o Senhor das Trevas Primordial foi executado por Mandos e, descorporado, expungido ( poder-se-ia dizer "exorcizado" já que,na prática, seu Espírito Negro estaria "possuindo" a Terra transformando-a no "Anel de Morgoth") pra periferia do nosso sistema solar, presumivelmente, pq dali seria mais difícil a reabsorção e controle do Elemento Morgoth despendido por ele pra corromper e manipular a "carne" ( erma) de Arda, a substância física da própria Terra.

A guerra foi bem sucedida, e a ruína limitada à pequena (embora bela) região de Beleriand. Morgoth foi então de fato feito prisioneiro em forma física (9), e naquela forma tomado como um mero criminoso para Aman e entregue a Namo Mandos como juiz – e executor. Ele foi julgado, e eventualmente levado para fora do Reino Abençoado e executado: isto é, morto como um dos Encarnados. Ficou então claro (embora deva ter sido compreendido antes por Manwe e Namo) que, embora ele tenha ‘disseminado’ seu poder (sua maligna e possessiva e rebelde vontade) longe e amplamente na matéria de Arda, ele perdeu o controle direto disso, e tudo que ‘ele’, enquanto um resto sobrevivente de um ser inteiro, manteve como ‘si mesmo’ e sob controle era o espírito terrivelmente diminuído e reduzido que habitava seu auto-imposto (mas agora amado) corpo. Quanto este corpo foi destruído ele estava fraco e inteiramente ‘desabrigado’, e àquele tempo perplexo e ‘desancorado’ como estava. Nós lemos que ele então foi arremessado no Vazio (10). Isto deve significar que ele foi colocado fora do Tempo e Espaço, toalmente fora de Eä; mas se assim o foi então isto implicaria em uma intervenção direta de Eru (com ou sem súplica dos Valar). Isto pode, contudo, se referir inacuradamente * à extrusão ou fuga de seu espírito de Arda.

(* [nota de rodapé ao texto] Uma vez que as mentes dos Homens (e mesmo dos Elfos) eram inclinadas a confundir o ‘Vazio’, enquanto o conceito de Não-ser, fora da Criação ou Eä, com o sentido de vastos espaços dentro de Eä, especialmente aqueles concebidos para se situarem no insular ‘Reino de Arda’ ( o qual nós deveríamos provavelmente chamar o Sistema Solar).)
Como Tolkien explicou em HoME X e o fanfic pelo jeito retratou, Melkor regressará quando reassimilar o suficiente de sua potência previamente dissipada no EM pra poder recriar seu corpo ( fána) e atacar os Valar com poderes, presumivelmente, comparáveis aos do tempo em que ele contendeu com seus pares e destruiu Almaren.

There are two explanations, both of which may be valid -
1. A rejuvenated Melkor battling even a weakened force of the
Valar and Maiar might cause greater destruction than Arda could
stand - we're talking about beings that raise up mountain chains
and island continents, demolish seas, and seed stars in the sky.
2. The fading of the Valar is, in the Myths Transformed
writings, put down to the continuing unfolding of the Song:
"The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in
proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more
defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly
defined the Future, and the less room for important change
(untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not
destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become
part of the 'Music in being' Only Eru may or can alter the
HoME X, Morgoth's Ring - Myths Transformed section VII (iii)
[page 401]
Which can be interpreted that the Valar have to protect the
Future as it must become, within the constraints of the Music to
date. As the Music unfolds, the greater the constraints upon the
Future, and the less freedom the Valar have to act. However, at
the ending of the Music, with the Future being completely unknown
(i.e. at Dagor Dagorath), these constraints are removed. The
Valar may act with the same freedom as in the Beginning. And the
greatest power of the Valar would meet the returning power of the
greatest Ainu of all* - who would only return once he felt that
he _could_ win. Result - Armageddon.
A provável inspiração pra essa concepção de Espírito Mau incorpóreo "morando num lago de espaços e num bosque de nada jamais cessando de mendigar substância" pra citar Yeats na Ampulheta foi, talvez, o conto de autor já estudado como possível influência de Tolkien , Algernon Blackwood,HSH, que é uma história de arrepiar, garanto .

Incidentalmente, a sequência do efeito reverberação entre a destruição do Anel do Poder e a devastação de Mordor e da Torre Negra evoca The Destruction of Smith, outro conto de Blackwood, porque assim como aconteceu com o Anel, Mordor e a Torre Negra, Smithville tinha sido construída com a doação da potência espiritual de Smith ( forjador é o significado do nome do personagem e Sauron era um "ferreiro" aulëano) e o backlash de suas destruições causou a descorporação definitiva de Sauron e a "confusão" de seu exército como se fossem todos guiados por uma mente gestalt, no conto de Blackwood o backlash do encantamento "simpático" destrói o conjurador assim como Sauron.

"I am still a Monarch, yes; but my Kingdom is taken from me, for I have no single subject. Lost in a loneliness that lies out of space and time, I am become a throneless Ruler, and my hopelessness is more than I can bear." The beseeching pathos of the voice tore him in two. The Deity himself, it seemed, stood there accused of jealousy, of sin and cruelty. The stranger rose. The power about him brought the picture of a planet, throned in mid-heaven and poised beyond assault. "Not otherwise," boomed the startling words as though an avalanche found syllables, "could I now show myself to you."(...)

He stopped dead, overwhelmed by the cruelty of his reckless utterance.

And the Other moved towards him slowly. It was like the summit of some peaked and terrible height that moved. He spoke. He changed appallingly.

"But / claim," he roared, "your heart. I claim you by that instant of belief you felt. For by that alone you shall restore to me my vanished Kingdom. You shall worship me."

In the countenance was a sudden awful power; but behind the stupefying roar there was weakness in the voice as of an imploring and beseeching child. Again, deep love and searching pity seared the Englishman's heart as he replied in the gentlest accents he could find to master:

"And I claim you" he said, "by my understanding sympathy, and by my sorrow for your God- forsaken loneliness, and by my love. For no Kingdom built on hate can stand against the love you would deny--"

Words failed him then, as he saw the majesty fade slowly from the face, grown small and shadowy. One last expression of desperate energy in the eyes struck lightnings from the smoky air, as with an abandoned movement of the entire figure, he drew back, it seemed, towards the door behind him.
Compare com a descrição de Melkor na Ainulindalë

And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.
Comparar com essa descrição de espíritos maus incorpóreos do livro "Feitiçaria" de Charles Williams

It is cold, it is hungry, it is violent, it is illusory. The warm blood of children and the intercourse at the Sabbath do not satisfy it. It wants something more and other; it wants 'obedience', it wants 'souls', and yet it pines for matter. It never was, and yet it always is.
— Witchcraft, Charles Williams

Quanto ao status Pós-Mudança do Mundo do Reino Abençoado, incluindo, pois, Aman e Tol Erëssea, Tolkien disse que ambos ainda estão "dentro de Eä, ainda fazendo parte do nosso Mundo mas estão fora dos Círculos do mundo", aí entendendo-se , bem misteriosa e cripticamente, já que ele mesmo falou que "a natureza do paradeiro de ambos devia ser um "mistério" e enigmática", como significando fora do fluxo normal de Espaço-Tempo, numa espécie de "banco de areia" no meio do "rio" do tempo ( algo tipo a Terceira Margem do Rio de Guimarães Rosa), correpondendo ao que se convencionou chamar de Dimensão de Bolso na ficção científica.

Então a resposta "élfica" pra sua pergunta: "estão dentro da Terra"? "Sim e não".

“Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both yes and no.”
Vide as Brumas de Avalon de Marion Zimmer Bradley ( fãzaça confessa de Tolkien) onde Avalon* e sua contraparte "terrestre", Glastonbury, divergem progressivamente como bifurcações num curso d'água e, também, o modo como a Ilha de Lost e o mundo paralelo de Crônicas de Spiderwick e a Estação Nove e Meio de Harry Potter, ao mesmo tempo, estão "dentro" e fora do mundo e das percepções das pessoas normais. O Status de Aman e Erëssea é, provavelmente, similar.

*e Tolkien deu o nome de Avalónnë pro porto de Tol Erëssea justamente por causa dessa analogia, aliás "Avallon" era, originalmente, o nome da própria Ilha e não do porto)

Vide aí mensagem minha sobre o tema:

Humano Saltitante

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Re: A antiga Arda era redonda?
Bom parece que aí tudo depende do sentido que a gente pode atribuir pra palavra "plano".

Sabemos que a tendência final do Tolkien na criação do Legendarium era descartar idéias como a da Arda Plana feita redonda na Mudança do Mundo, assim como a concepção inicial sobre o Sol e a Lua (Mitos Transformados).

Então, presumivelmente, a noção de que Aman e Tol Eressëa podiam estar,simplesmente, "boiando" além de um trecho de vácuo do espaço sideral, como o texto do Akhalabeth dá a entender, parece ter sido abandonada tb.

Mas o Tolkien não gostava da noção de que poderiam existir outros universos no seu Legendarium, então, a idéia de que Aman estaria em outra dimensão tb não se aplica.

O Tolkien fala no texto Dangweth Pengolodh do HoME XI que Aman está "além dos Círculos do Mundo mas ainda dentro de Eä" , do Universo, nosso Continuum.

Yet long since, AElfwine, the fashion of the World was changed; and we that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of our being: so that now we preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still with Eä - change goes ever on,

Ele tb fala que "a exata natureza da existência em Aman e Tol Erëssea deve ser dúbia e inexplicada" (texto sobre a Reeencarnação dos elfos).

Então, a situação de Aman parece ser meio análoga com a Avalon da Marion Zimmer Bradley. Ela (Avalon) ainda faz parte do nosso mundo e é um reflexo da ilha de Glastonbury ( ou vice-versa) mas não está exatamente em sincronia com o fluxo do Espaço-Tempo "normal". Nesse sentido, o termo aplicável é "dimensão de bolso" e pode em certo sentido ser entendida como "outro plano" embora não sendo outro universo. E não foi pra menos que Tolkien deixou o porto de Tol Eressëa batizado de Avalónnë ( o nome original da ilha era Avallon mesmo).

Uma última passagem do “Reencarnação dos Elfos” deve ser mencionada. Em uma espécie de “à parte” do curso de seus pensamentos, movendo-se (ainda) mais rapidamente do que sua caneta, meu pai anotou que “a exata natureza da existência em Aman ou Eressea após suas ‘remoções’ deve ser dúbia e inexplicada”, da mesma forma que a questão sobre “como ‘mortais’ poderiam ir até lá, de qualquer forma”. Sobre isto ele observou que Eru tinha “muito antes” deixado os Mortos dos mortais sob responsabilidade de Mandos
Resumindo: o Tolkien nunca poderia realmente explicar usando unicamente a linguagem do mito o que , de fato, teria ocorrido com Aman em termos de Física da Relatividade sem usar uma linguagem mais próxima da ficção científica.

É uma situação análoga com a do assim chamado "transe" de Melian e Thingol , eu , pessoalmente, não acho que o Tolkien quis dizer que os dois ficaram MESMO paralisados olhando um pro outro, embevecidos e alheios à passagem do tempo , no meio de uma clareira, sem ninguém , nem nada, encontrá-los ou perturbá-los durante sei lá quantos anos, tomando sol, chuva , neve e tudo o mais, mas não haveria maneira dele explicar a coisa deixando um clima de mito e fantasia , então, lances feito esse na mitologia são feitos mesmo pra ficarem sem explicação.

Espero que isso dê uma mão.
So great is the bounty with which he has been treated that he may now, perhaps, fairly dare to guess that in Fantasy he may actually assist in the effoliation and multiple enrichment of creation.

Tolkien no ensaio "On Fairy Stories"
Edição mais recente por Ilmarinen : 21-10-2009 em 20:54


Última edição:

Neoghoster Akira

Depois da traição de Melkor, eu passei a imaginar os círculos do mundo não mais como estado definitivo de coisas. A mão de Eru passaria a ter que conduzir as tudo de forma inédita diante que havia sido planejado antes.

Por isso eu seguiria a lógica do começo do Silma, em que os Ainur precisavam aprender lentamente uns com os outros numa linha reta ou num círculo de raio infinito num mundo renovado em que pudessem continuar seu aprendizado.


Alquimista Andarilho
Os posts do Meneldur e do Ilmarinen mostraram que a presença de Túrin na Dagor Dagorath não é certa e que haveria a possíbilidade de a batalha final ter sido totalmente remodelada quando comparada a versão da Segunda Profecia. Mas, se a dúvida é a possíbilidade de Tolkien escrever um relato de verdade sobre essa batalha, eu diria que é quase nula.

Por que quase nula? Simplesmente porque o relato do fim dos tempos, por mais curioso que possa parecer para nós não estava certo na cabeça do professor, se ele fosse como na profecia não contrariaria a Bíblia? O que vai acontecer com a humanidade após o Apocalipse? É símples e fácil, Tolkein não tinha a minima idéia! Se ele queria que sua história fizesse algum sentido como a mitologia sobre o passado da Terra ele teria de fazer de uma maneira que tudo parecesse "se encaixar" com o mundo que temos hoje o que de certa forma se encaixa.

Escrevendo um relato sobre o fim do mundo baseado na sua mitologia ele teria que dar um jeito de também encaixar a reencarnação de Eru e vários fatos posteriores a Terceira Era (lembrem que nem a quarta ele achou interessante o suficiente para escrever). Se eu tivesse que escolher prefiro a versão da segunda profecia mas como nem Tolkien tinha certeza como seria o fim do mundo, a profecia não poderia existir como um fato, continuaria apenas como "uma previsão para o futuro" sobre a qual nem mesmo o autor tinha certeza.


Eu adoraria se Tolkien tivesse incluído isso, e tivesse escrito um livro contando sobre o fim dos tempos. Ficaria muito legal a terra-média ter um começo, meio e fim.
Caio, não força a barra. Se Tolkien se baseasse exclusivamente na tradição cristã ele nem teria escrito o Silma, SdA & Cia [não do modo como a conhecemos!]

Porque Tolkien não continuou?
O Fabio Barreto escreveu uma frase perfeita para explicar isso no seu artigo sobre o fim de Lost: "Gosto de pensar que a melhor das histórias é aquela não contada. Contar pode, às vezes, engessar um conceito. Provocar a mente é o melhor caminho.

Outro trecho interessante do mesmo texto:

A resposta? É o que você quiser que ela seja! Nada de conclusão definitiva. É a aplicação do conceito da ‘Caixa Mágica’, de J.J. Abrams. A história é verídica: ele tem uma caixa com uma ‘surpresa mágica’ que ganhou quando criança. A idéia é abrir e ser surpreendido pelo presente, algo misterioso e inesperado. O diretor e produtor executivo nunca a abriu, pois prefere manter sua mente curiosa sobre o conteúdo mesmo depois de tantas décadas.

Uma Ilha para Todos Intrigar e Emocionar

Um bom exemplo disso é o final de Harry Potter :blah: Sou super fã da série, mas aquele Epílogo :wall::ahn?::evil::omfg::zzz: Matou a série!!! E a nossa imaginação...

Essa segunda profecia está ligada ao Ragnarök [não o jogo, a fonte mitológica], que "é uma série de eventos futuros, incluindo uma grande batalha anunciada para por fim resultar na morte de um número de figuras importantes (incluindo os deuses Odin, Thor, Týr, Freyr, Heimdallr e Loki), a ocorrência de vários desastres naturais e a submersão subsequente do mundo em água. Depois, o mundo ressurgirá de novo e fértil, os sobreviventes e os deuses renascidos se reunirão e o mundo será repovoado por dois sobreviventes humanos. Ragnarök é um evento importante na cânone nórdica e tem sido o tema de discurso acadêmico e teórico." [Wikipédia]

Sobre a questão do catolicismo de Tolkien, acho essa introdução [novamente retirada de "O Mundo de Tolkien"] muito interessante pra esclarecer a questão:

Fé e contos de fadas

Como cristão devoto cujo guardião era um padre católico, o desafio de reconstruir esses mitos gerava uma crise de consciência no jovem Tolkien. Afinal, o agente responsável pela supressão de sues mitos e lendas ancestrais tão amados era sua igualmente amada Igreja. Mas Tolkien, como jovem acadêmico devotado, esperava que essa estrela brilhante fosse a cabeça prateada do cravo
[aqui ele se refere a Eärendil], cravo esse que fornecia a justificativa intelectual e o álibi moral por meio dos quais o firmamento da mitologia pagã pudesse ser unido ao universo físico e à fé cristã. Foi dentro do conto de Eärendil que Tolkien acreditou haver descoberto uma forma para que sua consciência cristã permitisse que sua paixão pela mitologia pagã viesse à tona. Assim como muitos acadêmicos cristãos, o álibi de Tolkien foi elaborado no sentido de encontrar nas mitologias ancestrais uma base histórica para eventos bíblicos e a "prova" final dos "verdadeiros mitos" do cristianismo.

[[páginas 10 e 11]

Acho a leitura desse livro completo altamente recomendável. Tira muuuuitas dúvidas. Até eu estou pensando em reler, porque tem me surgido algumas dúvidas até bobas pelo esquecimento dos detalhes.

Dizer que Tolkien não podia ser apaixonado por mitologia pagã e usá-la em toda e qualquer parte de sua obra porque era católico é o mesmo que dizer que cientistas não podem ser cristãos. :roll:

Particularmente, minha versão favorita é a que Túrin derrota definitivamente Melkor :grinlove: E não adianta me dizer que foi descartada :obiggraz:


Usuário não-confiável!!!
Eu adoraria se Tolkien tivesse incluído isso, e tivesse escrito um livro contando sobre o fim dos tempos. Ficaria muito legal a terra-média ter um começo, meio e fim.
Muito legal toda a discussão aí pra cima, mas vocês não entenderam o porquê da TM não ter um final definitivo, um Apocalipse, digamos assim.
A história da TM se passa num passado muito distante, mas no nosso próprio Planeta Terra. A TM faz parte da NOSSA PRÓPRIA história.
Se aqui estamos, ainda vivos, habitando este mundo, é porque o Apocalipse ainda não aconteceu.

Como Tolkien poderia escrever sobre algo que ele não conhecia? Afinal de contas, não haviam registros élficos ou no Livro Vermelho sobre esse fim de mundo. A única coisa que existia era uma PROFECIA, uma DEDUÇÃO, feita por Mandos. Mas nem mesmo Mandos sabia como seria esse fim do mundo, afinal a visão final lhes foi coberta e só Eru conhece o fim de tudo.

É por isso que Tolkien não TERMINOU sua história: porque ela ainda não chegou ao fim.


O importante é o que importa
É por isso que Tolkien não TERMINOU sua história: porque ela ainda não chegou ao fim.
Bom levando em consideração que a 2º e 3º Eras levaram cerca de 3.200 anos cada uma, estaríamos de certa forma acredito eu vivendo o final da 4º Era ou já no início da 5º...:think:

Eu mesmo sou um descendente direto dos elfos...vê-se é claro pela minha beleza e sabedoria...:yep:


Usuário não-confiável!!!
Bom levando em consideração que a 2º e 3º Eras levaram cerca de 3.200 anos cada uma, estaríamos de certa forma acredito eu vivendo o final da 4º Era ou já no início da 5º...:think:

Eu mesmo sou um descendente direto dos elfos...vê-se é claro pela minha beleza e sabedoria...:yep:
De acordo com o próprio Tolkien, estamos entre as Sexta e a Sétima Eras. Vide este tópico: Eras Modernas e Atuais.

Valinor 2020

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