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who is ungoliant?
Silent ( 194 Points ) 12/12/2004 23:18:49 at 12/12/2004 23:18:49
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i took the test in knowledge hall and there’s this spider calld ungoliant. who is he? how did he come to middle earth? is he same as shelob?
Sulrin ( 4490 Points ) 12/12/2004 23:52:21 at 12/12/2004 23:52:21
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Ungoliant was a creature that came out of the darkness surrounding Arda when Melkor looked upon it and a dark desire over took him to rule it and all that was to be created on it. It was a female. A creature of darkness in the form of a giant spider. The creature was pursuaged by Melkor to help him destroy the Two Trees of Valinor, which she did. He promised her a great reward and she claimed it. Devouring many precious gems. But when she demaned the Silmarills, Melkor refused and she attacked him. His cries of help brought his balrog to the rescue and she fleed. It is said to a land of great emptiness and in her hunger she finally devoured herself. But not before mating and producing spiderous offspring of which Shelob was one.
Morwen1 ( 547 Points ) 13/12/2004 15:27:41 at 13/12/2004 15:27:41
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Ungolient was a servent of Morgoth. She was a spider, a giant one at that. It was she who killed one of the white trees. Shelob is one of the decendents of Ungolient, though less in stature. I’m not sure if she was killed or sent into the void with her master, but there is more information in the Silmarilion.
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 13/12/2004 16:06:41 at 13/12/2004 16:06:41
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Well, I suppose this has already been answered but let me just add to it by showing some of the text from the Silmarillion:
There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the kingdom of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be a mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Orome, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
In a ravine she lived, and took shape as a spider of monstrous form, weaving her black webs in a cleft of the mountains. There she sucked up all light that she could find, and spun it forth again in dark nets of strangling gloom, until no light more could come to her abode; and she was famished.
Of the Darkening of Valinor, The Silmarillion, pg 73
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 13/12/2004 16:15:08 at 13/12/2004 16:15:08
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This might answer what happened to Ungoliant ...
With their whips (Balrogs) of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching forth black vapours to cover her: and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whithershe would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.
Eru Illuvatar ( 1209 Points ) 14/12/2004 16:34:37 at 14/12/2004 16:34:37
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No, Ungoliant is greater than Shelob. If you would like to find out more, New Soul, I suggest you read The Silmarillion and the chapter entitled The Darkening Of Valinor.
Eru Illuvatar
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 14/12/2004 17:49:14 at 14/12/2004 17:49:14
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lol, she doesn’t have to read it anymore, since i outlined the main parts about her anyways.
eaglelgae ( 1235 Points ) 15/12/2004 12:55:09 at 15/12/2004 12:55:09
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Hey Centrus, where do you get the text out of The Silmarillion on the computer / online? Or do you type all those parts? Just wondering.
Eagle
Tammestkilp ( 3302 Points ) 15/12/2004 13:15:39 at 15/12/2004 13:15:39
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Quote: Originally posted by eaglelgae on Wednesday, December 15, 2004
Hey Centrus, where do you get the text out of The Silmarillion on the computer / online? Or do you type all those parts? Just wondering.
Eagle
[OT]
I have actuly no idea, but I give you some ideas to think of, maybe they are correct. There is this verison that Centrus types everything over, or Centrus has an online book, they are out there and you can even buy them. Olso, there is a way to scan this text in the computer and then use some kind of form programm and so get the text.
[/OT]
luvayavanna ( 316 Points ) 15/12/2004 14:05:53 at 15/12/2004 14:05:53
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Ungoliant is a giant spider that ate all the light out of the two trees of light (can’t think of their exact names right now) very bad creature. shelob is one of Ungoliant’s descendants. Yes, ungoliant did have descendants
Gloin Ironlater ( 444 Points ) 15/12/2004 14:14:36 at 15/12/2004 14:14:36
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Centrus basically gave all the information needed to explain what Ungoliant was. Only one thing was missing that i can see. She was a spirit in spider form. She was not an actual spider but she was a spirit, quite possibly a maia (ainu) that took up spider-form.
Gloin Ironlater ( 444 Points ) 15/12/2004 14:14:42 at 15/12/2004 14:14:42
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Centrus basically gave all the information needed to explain what Ungoliant was. Only one thing was missing that i can see. She was a spirit in spider form. She was not an actual spider but she was a spirit, quite possibly a maia (ainu) that took up spider-form.
halfir ( 46547 Points ) 15/12/2004 15:24:26 at 15/12/2004 15:24:26
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Gloin Ironlater: There is absolutely no information that tells us that there is even the slightest probability that Ungoliant was a maia. The fact that she could shape shift, ’take form’, proves nothing as so could Beorn and he was a man!
The provenance of Ungoliant is very obscure. I deal with some posibilities with my posts in the Great Spiders thread:
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archive/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=9293.
There I esentially argued that she was an unintentional product of the discord of Melkor, a view I then went away from as I had no concrete evidence. However, taking the following quote into account I am moving towards the theory that she was the unintentional result- as were others- of the clash between the discord of Melkor and the music of Eru:
’;Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not ’;beget’;, or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and ’;distain’; her, not to beget fiery offspring). Out of the discords of the Music -sc. not directly out of either of the themes, Eru’;s or Melkor’;s, but out of their dissonance with regard to one another evil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor; they were not ’;his children’;; and therefore, since all evil hates , hated him too.’; {Tolkien’;s italics, my bold emphasis) {Home10 Morgoth’s Gold - Myths Transormed V11 Notes on motives in The Silmarillion}
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
MorgothBaugliar ( 473 Points ) 15/12/2004 17:06:39 at 15/12/2004 17:06:39
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Interesting and very possible theory, too bad Ungoliant wasn’t in more of the book to reveal more information about her past, future, and descendants
Terramoto ( 166 Points ) 16/12/2004 16:52:09 at 16/12/2004 16:52:09
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i just want to add a few things
1 Tolkien drew his insperation for ungoliant from Kali an indian/tibetan god of destruction
2 can’t remember where but tolkien described it as an unlight as opposed to darkness she (thats right female) is supposed to give unbirth, whatever that means
GrimaWormtongue ( 182 Points ) 17/12/2004 12:17:31 at 17/12/2004 12:17:31
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wasnt shelob a child of ungoliant?? i thought i read somewhere that shelob ate all off her brothers and sisters and her mum, but that kinda contradicts what someone else said abou ungolient being greater than shelob
halfir ( 46547 Points ) 17/12/2004 12:43:02 at 17/12/2004 12:43:02
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Terramoto: I have never heard that Ungoliant was inspired by Kali, and given the linguistic provenance of the name ’Ungoliant’ as it develops through various drafts I find this highly unlikely. Can you plkease give a source refernce for your claim?
GW: Shelob ate her own mates - not her mother and her brothers and sisters. There is no textual support for that statement. And Shelob was the progeny of Ungoliant’s mating with cretaures of similar form to herself, but not with her powers- as far as one can tell- so Shelob did not have the power of Ungoliant.
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
Silanna Seastar ( 1260 Points ) 17/12/2004 13:23:40 at 17/12/2004 13:23:40
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If Ungoliant was a Maia, (which is possible), what exactly are her descendents, the giant spiders of Mirkwood and therebouts? Are they not true spiders, but some type of evil spirit as well?
Thalion PB ( 524 Points ) 22/12/2004 15:12:40 at 22/12/2004 15:12:40
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Okay... well ignorant as i may be... i don’t remember there being a Mister Ungoliant... so where did all these cute little mini-huge-spiders come from... also; why is it that all these nasty evil creatures seem to get weaker and weaker as time goes by. (i’m thinking of dragons for one... and of shelob who is much weaker than Ungoliant)?
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 22/12/2004 15:52:28 at 22/12/2004 15:52:28
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lol, sry guys I bin away for a while. Actually I type it all in, whilst it takes ages, I enjoy it and I like to know what I’m posting lol.
Thalion PB - read my second post more carefully ... there were already spiders there before Ungoliant came, she most likely mated with them ...
ladymay13 ( 295 Points ) 23/12/2004 14:24:55 at 23/12/2004 14:24:55
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Ahhh ungoliant was the mother of Shelob... she used to be a witch who was turned into a spider or something as her punnishment.. and thats all I know.... Hopfully that was alittle help.. well merry christmas
Execarius ( 64 Points ) 23/12/2004 18:17:29 at 23/12/2004 18:17:29
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Ungoliant is the most powerful giant spider that ever lived in middle earth
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 24/12/2004 20:12:29 at 24/12/2004 20:12:29
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Why do people keep answering the question??? They obviously haven’t read through the thread lol ...
Telhuaniel ( 626 Points ) 25/12/2004 03:17:13 at 25/12/2004 03:17:13
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Well, not many people have answered this..Shelob was one of the spawn of Ungoliant, and stayed in her cleft, waiting for people to feast on. Just like her mother, who grew fat after she sucked all the good out of the Two Trees, Telperion and Laurudin(or something like that)
Sillana- That’s exactly what happened. Ungoliant’s spawn went into Mirkwood. I think that Ungoliant wasn’t a true spider, but her spawn were.
Elendilo ( 597 Points ) 25/12/2004 10:59:04 at 25/12/2004 10:59:04
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ungolant can only be pit in laymans terms becese I dont want to bore you .she was the spider that aided melkor in the destruction of the trees of the valar buy not only weaving a cloak of invisability for him but also sucking the life out of the trees and then attacking melkor becase he would not feed her
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 25/12/2004 13:41:13 at 25/12/2004 13:41:13
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Plenty of people answered that, myself especially in the 4th post of this thread ...
Aeros ( 859 Points ) 27/12/2004 09:15:28 at 27/12/2004 09:15:28
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I agree with Centrus. READ THE BLOOMIN’ THREAD!
Undarius ( 134 Points ) 27/12/2004 11:04:35 at 27/12/2004 11:04:35
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Why is this thread still up... Im sure someone has already told you that ungoliant was the greatest giant spider to ever live in middle earth... well if not, thats it, and this entire thread has been up way too long.
halfir ( 46547 Points ) 27/12/2004 18:16:18 at 27/12/2004 18:16:18
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Ungoliant was not a spider! Read the earlier posts in this thread and The Silmarillion- Of The Darkening of Valinor:
’and took shape as a spider of monstrous form’ (my bold emphasis and underline)
And she did not mate with spiders, she mated with:
’other foul creatures of spider form’ (The Silmarillion- Of the Flight of the Noldor- my bold emphasis and underline)
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
Ascacrabanion ( 396 Points ) 28/12/2004 04:44:20 at 28/12/2004 04:44:20
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Ungoliant existed during the time of Melkor and the Silmarils. Ungoliant liked most to feed on the jewels that Melkor brought him. He was complete darkness and he ate light. He is related to Shelob becuase Shelob was the only child of his to survive.
Rajraiden ( 539 Points ) 28/12/2004 07:45:59 at 28/12/2004 07:45:59
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Ungoliant was an evil spirit. She was a female and had taken the form of a giant spider when she entered the Arda. She was befriended by Melkor who sought her help in destroying the two trees. She later attacked Melkor when he refused to give the Silmarils and fled away defeated by the balrogs of Melkor.
Centrus ( 1484 Points ) 01/01/2005 03:45:40 at 01/01/2005 03:45:40
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For crying out loud .... People really need to read threads before they post.
Please can an admin close this thread ...
É isso mesmo que Tolkien sugere no fundo... As implicações freudianas da defesa valente de Sam pra salvar Frodo da Shelob, com o uso do Ferrão e tudo, são NADA comparadas com a profundidade nietszcheana, freudiana e junguiana de Ungoliant x Melkor.
